Living Trust/Will vs. Castle Trust, What Is the Difference? | Weekly Wednesday Wisdom Webinars

Weekly Wednesday Wisdom Webinars February 10, 2021

Certified Elder Law Attorney and Financial Advisor Chris Berry of Castle Wealth Group answers questions on retirement and estate planning every Wednesday at 1pm.

Want to join our live webinar? go to to register or give our office a call at 844-885-4200.

Want to book a 15-minute call with Chris Berry? Register at to book a schedule in his calendar.

Castle Wealth Group and Christopher Berry help families with estate planning, elder law, retirement planning, and tax planning from their offices in Brighton, Ann Arbor, Livonia, Bloomfield Hills, and Novi.



On this week’s webinar, attorney and advisor Chris Berry of answers the below questions.

  • I have an inherited IRA and over the last few years, I’ve only taken the RMD. Should I be taking out more? I don’t see the benefit and would rather keep it invested where it is now, because I don’t know where to invest the money.
  • (pop-in question) Does it make sense to convert an inherited IRA to ROTH before you convert a regular IRA?
  • (pop-in question) Does it ever make sense to use your IRA of 401k funds to pay the taxes resulting from a ROTH conversion?
  • Are assisted living costs tax deductible?
  •  Is there a rule of thumb on how much should be rolled over from IRA/401k to Roth IRA annually?
  • Should children once they reach the age of majority have disability documents put in place?
  • I am 70 and have been converting Roth IRA’s for several years. Is there an advantage to using IUL instead of Roth?
  • Living Trust/Will vs. Castle Trust, what is the difference? Do you need an umbrella policy?

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Episode Transcript


All right. We’ll go ahead and get started here. Let me make sure I’m recording. All right. If you do have questions, feel free to put them into the question and answer section. My name’s Chris Berry, if you didn’t know. We do these wisdom webinars every week, where we have people submit questions ahead of time. If you do have questions while we’re going live today, feel free to go ahead and submit those questions. I’d like to always start with a positive focus, something positive that happens the previous week. I’ll just share something today. I met with a client of mine, a long-term client, lost her husband last year, but she’s a sweetheart. She brought in some cookies for us in the team. That was super nice. I really appreciate it.

With that, we’ll go ahead and get started. Like I said, if you do have questions, feel free to put it into the question and answer section. I already see Doug submitted a question, so we’ll get to that. As we’re going through this, if you want to see how any of this applies to your situation, feel free to go to You can book some time on my calendar there.

With that, we’ll go ahead and get started. Let me share my screen. I think I have about six questions already lined up. But not to say, if you have a question or something’s unclear, feel free to ask that question. Give me a second as I share my screen. Oops. Then, I hit this button and this button. With that, should be going live. All right. Looks a little funky. Let’s see now. There you go. Now, it’s locked in. All right.

The first question here: “I have an inherited IRA, and over the last five years, I’ve only taken the RMD,” so the required minimum distribution. She’s just taking the required minimum distribution. When you inherit an IRA, no matter what your age is, you have to take out what’s called RMDs, required minimum distributions, versus if it is your 401k or IRA, you have to take that at 70 and a half. She inherited an IRA, so she has to take out the RMDs regardless of age. “I don’t see the benefit. Should I be taking out more? I don’t see the benefit and would rather keep it invested where it is now because I don’t know where to invest money if I did take more.”

So really, what this question is getting to, should you be taking out more than your required minimum distribution? Really, what I think this boils down to is a question of where do you think taxes are going, so if you think taxes are going up, or do you think taxes are going down. Most people would say that taxes are going up in the future. The reasons for that… And we’ve talked about why I think taxes are going up. This isn’t probably news to anyone that’s been on this webinar. Probably, you feel the same way, is, first of all, we have the tax cuts and jobs act, which goes from 2018 to 2025. Now, that said, Biden could repeal this sooner. But across the board, this is going to cause taxes… just even marginal tax rates are going to go up 3 to 4%. If you’re at the 22% tax bracket, that’s going to go to either 25 or 28, depending on where you’re at in that 22% tax bracket.

Just the way laws are written, taxes are going up as it stands now, plus we’re about $30 trillion in debt coming into 2020, we were $22 trillion, but now with the pandemic and everything, then everyone said, “We got to figure out a way to pay for this. We can’t just keep printing money. Otherwise, we’re going to have to deal with inflation.”

Another thing to think about is the widow’s penalty. If you are married and one spouse passes away, understand that the tax bracket shrink now. Now, that surviving spouse might have to pay more tax. Then, now, with the SECURE Act that passed, if you’re leaving this to the next generation, so widow’s penalty that applies to your spouse, a SECURE Act, that can penalize your beneficiaries. Now, they’re going to have to pay all the taxes within five years. Why I think taxes are going up: all of these reasons. If you think taxes are going up in the future, then I’ve been beating this drum since, really, 2016, when the deficits started shooting up. Then, let’s pay taxes now because we’re going to pay less in terms of tax.

I always view this tax conversation… It’s really two steps. The first step is always how much. How much do we take out of those IRAs, 401ks, 403bs, inherited IRAs, pre-tax accounts? Really what we’re looking at, tax brackets. We look to see where the tax brackets are falling. Right now, if you’re 22% tax bracket, I would suggest filling up that tax bracket and then going into the 24%. Because when the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act is repealed, your 22% is going to 25 or 28. Just by paying the tax, now you’re saving 3 to 5, 6, 7, 8%. Then, going up into the 24% tax bracket because that’s still less than 25 or 28, which we know when the Tax Cuts and Jobs act Expires. That’s where your 22% tax bracket is going to.

Always, when we’re doing tax planning, the first question is always, how much to convert? The second step is, now, where do we put it? Or where do we invest? You can do Roth conversions. If you like to XYZ mutual fund inside of your IRA, you could invest in XYZ mutual fund inside of a Roth. Think of these as just wrappers. You have an IRA wrapper. Well, you can invest in a lot of different things inside of your IRA stocks, bonds, annuities, just having sitting-in cash, CDs, even real estate. You can invest inside of your IRA. Likewise, if we’re in an asset protection trust, it’s just a wrapper. You can invest in whatever you want. Likewise, if it’s in a Roth, you can invest in whatever it is you want. If you’re super happy with where it’s invested now, you could probably invest in the same thing inside of a Roth or inside of a taxable account.

Now, I would suggest there’s some things to take into account. If you’re going from a tax-deferred account to now a taxable account, maybe we want to make sure whatever we invest in is tax efficient. If we’re going from a tax IRA account or IRA account to investing in a trust, maybe we should take into account… We could look at something that grows tax-free, like index universal life. A common comes in. But don’t you also need to be careful with what’s going up with social security? Yeah. Understand that when you do a Roth conversion or pulling money out of the IRAs… This is where we have a document. If you email me, I can send this to you, key data for 2020. We have 2021 now, actually.

But it has your marginal tax brackets. But then, a lot of people are concerned about social security. Well, won’t it cause the tax on my social security to go up? Well, we have this on the other side, if you’re married and you’re already making more than $44,000, understand that it’s not going to cause additional tax on your social security. Once you get above $44,000 of provisional income, your tax on social security isn’t going up. What may go up when you do the conversion is your Medicare premiums. It’s only for the years that you’re doing this conversion. But when we run the numbers, I can almost guarantee that the tax savings, just based on the way the current tax laws are now, not even taking into account the fact that, “Hey, we’re…” Sorry, I erased this. “We’re $30 trillion in debt, so a lot of people think taxes have to go much, much higher in the future.” Your tax savings are going to far outweigh whatever your Medicare premium increase will be. So, yes, your Medicare premiums may increase when you do the conversions, but your tax savings are far going to outweigh that.

Again, I think taxes are the biggest risk and biggest opportunity based on all these tax laws that we’re dealing with right now. If that’s something you want assistance with, we’re more than happy to help you with that. Again, it’s the biggest opportunity right now. I’ve sat down with some very smart people that had misunderstood how all this fits together in terms of tax planning, investment planning. Just book some time on my calendar, and we can look into it in your individual situation. Again, I would look at taking out more than those RMDs. I think that makes a lot of sense, and I can sit down and run the numbers with you.

Something here: “Does it make sense to convert an inherited IRA to a Roth before a regular IRA?” The question is, does it make sense to convert an inherited IRA to Roth before you convert the regular IRA? The answer to that is it depends.

Question is, “Can you recommend a tax preparer that works with you?” We do taxes for our clients. We have a CPA that’s affiliated with us. If you want us to do your taxes and tax planning, we can certainly do that for you.

Getting back to this question: does it make sense to convert an inherited IRA to a Roth before a regular IRA? I guess we would have to look at big picture, how that fits into your overall tax planning goals. Because either the way, it’s pre-tax dollars. The difference is with the inherited IRA. You already have to take out the RMDs. I guess if you are younger, depending on your age, by converting the inherited IRA or paying the tax on the inherited IRA first, you might be able to take a little bit more control. But I think that would be more on a case-by-case basis, whether to convert the inherited IRA first or convert your traditional IRA. We’d have to take a look at how much is in the different accounts, that type of thing.

Another question came in. “Does it ever make sense to use your IRA or 401k funds to pay the taxes resulting from a Roth conversion?” Again, everyone jumps to the idea of doing a Roth conversion automatically. I’m not sure if that’s always the best answer depending on your situation. It’s not always the best idea to do a Roth conversion, even if pulling money out of the IRA makes the most sense. But let’s assume that we are doing a Roth conversion. Does it make sense to use pre-tax dollars to pay the tax? Ideally, if we’re looking at maximizing the amount that we put over into the Roth, like if you have a $100,000 pre-tax, you could do a Roth conversion to put a $100,000 tax-free, but then you’d have to use other money to pay the tax on it. Let’s assume that it’s a $20,000 tax. We would have to pay $20,000 from your taxable account. That would maximize the amount that we have in the tax-free bucket.

But let’s say that we had &100,000 dollars pre-tax that we’re going to convert. Well, another way to do it would be to put maybe… I’m just doing rough math in my head, $85,000 now into the Roth and then withhold or pay the tax on the additional amount. Now, we only have 80 or 85,000 sitting in the tax-free environment, which isn’t as good from an overall tax efficiency standpoint. But a lot of times, people don’t have that money sitting in checking savings to pay for the Roth conversions. A little more thought has to be put into it. But I would say even if you don’t have other funds to pay for the conversion and you are doing a Roth conversion, it’s probably still going to make sense.

Then, remember, we don’t always have to do a Roth conversion. We might want to look at withholding the taxes, so taking that 100,000. Now, we have 80,000 post-tax, and there might be other things we want to do, depending on our overall plan. Maybe we want to throw it in an asset protection trust. Maybe, we want to look at index universal life. Understand it’s not always about putting money into the Roth. That might not always be the best answer. But I think everyone should explore the idea of pulling money out of those pre-tax accounts one way or another.

All right. That takes me to number two: our assisted living costs tax-deductible. The answer is yes. Once you get above, I want to say that 7.5% of whatever your adjusted gross income is… You do need to look at the amount of income you have to figure out if it’s deductible, and then you also have to keep in mind itemize. I can’t spell itemize while I’m talking. I-tem-ize. Keep in mind. You cannot rely on the standard deduction. Right now, we have a pretty hefty standard deduction, so not a lot of people are itemizing. The two requirements for you to be able to write off assisted living or nursing home costs would be, first of all, it has to be greater than 7.5% of your adjusted gross income. Then, the second thing is you do have to itemize. If you answer yes to both of those situations, then yes, you could write off long-term care costs, nursing home costs, et cetera.

That brings me to number three. “Is there a rule of thumb on how much should be rolled over from IRA 401k to Roth IRA annually?” Again, everyone talks about doing this Roth conversion. That’s not always the best answer, but it’s the simplest, so I understand why we always bring up the Roth. I’m not against Roth. I just want you to understand there’s other things to think about, other than just putting all the money into the Roth.

Is there a rule of thumb on how much should be rolled over from 401k to IRA annually? Again, this gets into the question of where do you think taxes are going. Do you think they’re going up or down? My answer to this is really as much as you can, so as much as you can stomach, because think of it as you’re ripping a bandaid off. No one likes paying taxes. I run into this a lot, and I think it’s helpful to go over again. This throws off a lot of smart people, but typically, what we do is we look through your tax brackets. Now, a big myth is that if I pay the tax now, I have less money to invest. This is a big concern a lot of people have a lot of times, as well if I pay money on the pre-tax account, that $100,000 now it’s only 80,000. Now, I’m only getting compounding interest on the $80,000. But let’s walk through this. This throws off a lot of very smart people.

Let’s say we have $100,000 IRA money. This is pre-tax. Then, we have 80,000, let’s call it, just post-tax. Let’s assume that the tax, just keeping the math straight, is 20%. The question is, if both of these accounts go up 10%, let’s assume they’re invested in the same exact thing, obviously, because $100,000 is bigger than 80,000, you’re getting more bang for your buck. Well, let’s first agree is $100,000 pre-tax the same as 80,000 post-tax, just in terms of spending money, spending power. We’d agree that that’s the same number in essence, right? If we added 10% to both of these, now our 100,000 has grown to 110,000. We’ve grown 10,000 and our 88 or 80,000 grows 8,000. Now, we’re at 88,000. We’ve only grown 8,000. That would seem to lean credence to the idea that we want to grow this pre-tax amount, but aha. We got to take out our tax. Our tax is still 20%, and 20% of 110 is 22,000. When we subtract out our tax, it’s actually still the same number.

We need to understand the growing money in the pre-tax account. What are you doing? You’re not growing more money because your spending power is still exactly the same. What are you actually growing? You’re growing a tax bill. Now, what if taxes were going up 10% in the future? Then, you’re going to lose out even more. Okay. We need to understand that you might like seeing a million dollars pre-tax, but that’s only $800,000 post-tax. That’s actually the same number. If both of those numbers grow, the only thing you’re growing is a bigger tax bill. That’s why the government wants you to defer, defer, defer, paying taxes as long as possible.

Again, is there a rule of thumb of how much should be rolled over from the IRAs? I would look at it as much as you can stomach. Typically, we start with looking at how much should we do. We look to your tax brackets, and we look to where tax brackets are going. Then, we decide, if we’re going to convert $100,000, what should we do with it? Should it go into a Roth? Should it go into an asset protection trust? Should it go into index universal life? Should you spend that money? Should it stay in a taxable account? The default isn’t always just go to a Roth. We need to figure out where do we want to put it. That is number three.

“Should children, once they reach the age of majority, have disability documents put in place?” This came out of a interview. I don’t know if you saw it via email. There was a national interview for Scripts News Network. They interviewed me with regards to, if I have a loved one in a nursing home or assisted living with the pandemic, what are the things then I need to have, especially as it relates to vaccines and COVID tests? And that type of thing. What I said is there’s three main tools. One of these tools can be lumped into one of the other tools. The first thing we need to have is a financial power of attorney, a document appointing someone to make financial decisions. Then, we need to have a medical power of attorney. Who’s going to make medical decisions. Then, in one of these documents, we also had to have, what’s called, a HIPAA authorization, which is a release of medical information.

If you have a loved one that’s in assisted living or a nursing home, or you’re caring for them, these are what we call disability documents. Then, the question from a client was, “What if I have adult-age children that are, say, 18 to 25? They’re not married. Do they need these documents as well?” The answer is a resounding yes. Now, they’re not going to be thinking about it. But once they turn 18, legally, they’re adults, and so your parental rights end. You don’t have access to their medical records. The doctor can’t share medical information with you. For a lot of our clients that have adult-aged children that maybe aren’t married or don’t have families of their own, it’s very important to put together the financial power of attorney, the medical power of attorney, and make sure the access to medical directives through that HIPAA authorization is done. Again, if you have kids, 18 to 25, it’s important for us to put together their disability documents.

All right, keep it going. Question number five. “I am 70, have been converting Roth IRAs for several years.” That makes me happy. “Is there advantage to using IUL instead of Roth?” They’re different tools. What a Roth does, it converts money. It turns it to tax-free. That’s good. Typically, it’s invested in the market. I’m not saying that’s good or bad. Those are just typically the characteristics of a Roth. You could ask, “I’ll have a fixed index annuity inside of a Roth to take out some of the downside and just capture the upside.” But typically, most of the Roths we see that people come in with they have it invested in the market.

What a IUL can do? It’s a slightly different tool, but it has indexed growth. Meaning, if the market goes down, you don’t lose anything. If the market goes up, you get the upside. It is tax-free. The growth can create a tax-free income source in retirement. You have a death benefit. That could offer more of a legacy, meaning that if there’s money that you say, you know what, you’re not going to use during your lifetime. You could pay pennies on the dollar for additional death benefit coverage. For example, your Roth, if you were to just take into just account the growth of the markets, maybe that $100,000 Roth will grow to $200,000, hypothetically. It could go down, if it’s in the market, too, versus IUL when you factor in the death benefit. You put in $100,000 dollars a premium. It could be a guaranteed $300,000 tax-free death benefit to the kids, depending on your age and health, that type of thing.

Then, also a nice thing about this is the death benefit could also double as a long-term care benefit. If you’re not interested in the death benefit, let’s say you have a $500,000 death benefit, that death benefit could be a pool of long-term care benefits. Another advantage of the IUL, not advantage, but I’d say a feature or a benefit, is it can be owned by the trust. It could be owned by a castle trust. What that means is the IUL, unlike the Roth, could be protected from nursing home or a Medicaid spend out. From a long-term care perspective, understand, a Roth is available for long-term care costs, or long-term care could eat up the value of the Roth versus the IUL. It’s protected or shielded if it’s inside of the asset protection trust. That’s a big thing to think about. I have an asset protection trust. I do have some Roth money, but also I have cash-value life insurance that’s building inside of this protected asset protection trust.

In advantage of the Roth, it’s simple to understand. Like I said, a bunch of these questions I’ve referenced Roth conversions. How many questions have I gotten referencing IUL? Not that many. A downside of the IUL, it’s complex and time-consuming. I’m not saying one is better than the other. These are just different tools that are available. I have some clients that are doing… Half of the money they’re moving out of the Roth or out of the traditional IRA. They’re putting it in a Roth. The other half, they’re moving into an IUL. Just again, diversification. It’s all about: what are your goals, figure out the best strategies and then pick the right tools. I’m not saying a IUL is better than a Roth, but I would say that it should be something that is explored.

Understand if it’s a tool that you want to fit into your strategy and goals, and that’s something that we can help with. A Roth, it’s very easy to understand conceptually. It’s just moving it from here to here. It’s still in the market. IUL is much more complex. But I’d say the more money you have typically, then people start looking at IULs in addition to Roths. If you’re a U of M fan, if you Google Jim Harbaugh IUL ESPN, there’s an ESPN article that talks about how Jim Harbaugh was paid, from U of M, a portion of his salary was paid to IUL for all the reasons that we stated here. I’m not trying to sell you on the idea of IUL. It’s just more complicated. Most people don’t know as much about it. It is more complex. It is a more sophisticated planning tool than a Roth. But I wouldn’t say one is better than the other. They’re both tools. It’s just a different tool.

Item six. All right. That brings me to number six. Someone had a request with number six. The question is, “Please include asset protection trust in item six when you clarify types of documents.” The castle trust is a asset protection trust. It’s our most popular type of asset protection trust. But when I say castle trust, think asset protection trust. The question was, “A living trust versus a castle trust, what is the difference? Do I need an umbrella policy if I do have an asset protection trust?” Really, we have three levels of planning in our office. The first plan is what I call a base plan. The base plan is going to avoid probate and control the distribution upon death.

Typically, it’s outright distributions. This would be a living will or a living trust-based plan with outright distributions. We would do a pour-over will. So if you want to avoid probate, we can do a base trust plan, outright distributions to the kids at a specific age. The first level of planning avoids probate. Our second level planning, we call this legacy planning, would avoid probate but now protects beneficiaries. This is still a revocable living trust that avoids probate. But now, what we leave to the next generation, the kids, grandkids, the money’s protected from divorces, creditors, bankruptcies. Then, if one of your kids passes away, the money doesn’t go to a spouse who might remarry but instead would flow down to your grandkids. Then, if not your grandkids, then go over to other siblings. That’s still a revocable living trust. That doesn’t protect you.

These are both living trusts. It’s just, how do we make the distribution upon death? One just outright distributions. This is probably the most common type of trust we review when a client comes into our office, is typically they’ll have a base trust because there’s a lot of attorneys out there. You can download trust forms that say outright to the kids at 25, 30, 35. But majority of my clients, they want to protect their kids, protect them from divorces, creditors, bankruptcies, et cetera. That’s where typically most of our clients are opting for a legacy trust that avoids probate plus protects the beneficiaries, or we’re looking to the castle trust, which is the asset protection trust. The castle trust avoids probate protects the beneficiaries, but most importantly, protects you. This is the only trust. The really protects you as an asset protection trust.

When we’re talking about protection, what does it protect against? It protects against lawsuits, creditors, and then the big one is the long-term care costs in a nursing home to the tune of eight to $12,000 per month. Really, it just depends on, again, what are your goals? Let’s pick the strategy and then pick three tools. If your only goal is to avoid probate outright distributions to your beneficiaries or kids, then we do a base trust. If you want to avoid probate, but now you want to protect the kids from divorces, creditors, bankruptcies, make sure the money stays in the bloodline, then we do a legacy trust. If you want to avoid probate, protect the kids, but most importantly, protect you from nursing home costs, from creditors, bankruptcies, you’re concerned about liability, then we’ll do the castle trust.

All of them are good tools. Just like a Roth is a good tool, a IUL is a good tool. Having money in the market is good. We put together a portfolio that matches your risk tolerance. These are all tools. It’s just about figuring out what are your goals. Figure out the best strategies, and then, and only then, pick the right tools. Hopefully, that should be clear in the difference between just a basic revocable living trust versus a living trust that offers asset protection for the kids or beneficiaries, versus an asset protection trust, a castle trust, that avoids probate, protects the kids, but most importantly, protects you from creditors, bankruptcies, et cetera. I’m not saying everyone needs that level of that castle trust. But again, it’s, what are your goals? Let’s develop the strategies to help you achieve the goals and then, and only then, pick the right tools. That is all I have in terms of questions.

Oh, umbrella policy. Sorry. With umbrella policies, I still recommend that you do an umbrella policy up to whatever your net worth is. It’s super cheap to have an umbrella policy. Typically, it’s through your property and casualty or homeowners insurance. It might be $200 to add another million dollars worth of coverage. Now, I view it as sandbags. Understand that it’s not full-proof. You’re building sandbags versus if we were to set up an asset protection trust or set up an LLC. That’s building a wall around whatever’s inside of that. Just like when preparing for a hurricane, you have the sandbags outside your walls. I would still have an umbrella policy up until your net worth. Then, also, if you’re concerned about liability, I’d want to build those walls. I’d want to build the asset protection trust to protect your personal assets. If you have second pieces of real estate, then look at LLCs or maybe mini castle trusts.

Another comment came in here. Oops, where did it go? Then, when do you need a castle trust? I would say that you need a castle trust when you’re concerned about liability, so creditors, bankruptcies, getting in a car accident, being sued, or if you’re concerned about long-term care costs in the future. Now, it depends on how your assets are structured, depending on how much money is pre-tax versus post-tax. But what a castle trust will do is avoid probate, protect your beneficiaries, but then, most importantly, protect you from creditors as well as from a devastating cost of long-term care, so that nursing home or Medicaid spend out. That would be when we would look to a castle trust.

I’ve sat down with people, and they said they weren’t concerned about long-term care costs, weren’t concerned about creditors. They had multi-millions of dollars. Even though they had this money and the accumulated wealth, they weren’t interested in protecting against those things. That’s fine. Then, in terms of the legal planning, the legacy planning, then we would look at just a legacy trust, not a castle trust. Understand that it fits into our overall planning of looking at your income planning, investment planning, tax planning, healthcare planning, legacy plan. A lot of times, we do start with that legacy planning because that’s the legal structure. But if you’re not concerned about long-term care costs, or you’re not concerned about lawsuits, then I wouldn’t suggest a castle trust.

How does it protect from long-term care costs? The castle trust, what it does is when you move assets into the trust, it starts a five-year race. If you can make it five years from the time you moved assets into the trust before you needed a nursing home, which is that final step on that eldercare journey, which costs eight to 12, 13, $14,000 a month, then everything inside of the trust would be protected from that nursing home or Medicaid spend out. What that means is you could have governmental benefits pay that base level of care. Then, you’d have a pot of resources, pay for additional services or to improve your quality of life, or if you’re a married couple, to ensure if one spouse needs long-term care, that healthy spouse isn’t completely impoverished having to pay for that.

All right. Any other questions or comments? Give everyone a minute to submit any other additional questions. Anyone get rich on GameStop stock over the last week or so. It’s been quite the interesting story to follow with GameStop. Running it up and sticking it to the hedge funds. Then, GameStop stock coming back down. Shows how the stock market isn’t always logical. All right. Okay. All right. It looks like no other questions. I want to thank everyone for taking part. I appreciate all of the questions. I really enjoy these. Hopefully, you find value from these. We’ll meet again next week. If you do have any questions… Doug wrote. Thank you. You’re welcome. Phil, my pleasure. Certainly appreciate it. Thank you, everyone. Make it a great week. Take care. Bye-bye.


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